> At, if I make it near your area, I'll call for the dinner. But for
> some of those other symbiosis advantage rather than the financial
> one.
I like your spirit. There are three main types of symbiosis:
mutual: A produces something which is food to B and
B produces something else which is food to A
comensal: A produces something which is food to B and
which B may utilise without harming A
parasital: A produces something which is food to B and
which B utilise to the detriment of A
I am all for mutual symbiosis. I often have to act as A in comensal
symbiosis to get things going, hoping that it will develop into mutual
symbiosis. I often feel uneasy when I act as B in comensal symbiosis. It
is because I often find that comensal symbiosis degrade into parasital
symbiosis which I deplore.
> I am happy with the list. It is the structures for extending beyond
> the list in more focussed ways that interests me.
>
> I would love to find a way to contribute some of my more detailed or
> more current stuff with others. I cannot afford to do it and to look
> after my clients and develop more and feed may own requirements. The
> complex of my life, including financial but far from limited to that
> domain, does not allow for it.
It is very much the same with me.
> I think the "banking" idea is coming and that will be one part. I
> think also that providing "virtual meeting rooms" or other restricted
> and paid for space will be important.
Their charges should be reasonable.
> What if Ben said to those of us who have expressed interest or might
> do so if the offer was clear, "Meet me at a certain address and send
> me a cheque (credit card payment, etc) for X and I'll share the
> details and explore those with you." The problem that I see is that
> Ben will have to pay for the space and hope someone comes.
This how the free market works. You have to produce something which the
buyer wants. However, two problems worry me. Firstly, advertisements may
push the selling of a thing which is actually almost worthless. Thus we
need some way of quality assessment. Secondly, the buyer may not be in a
position to know that he needs something in particular (like medicine).
Thus we need some way of professional counseling.
> George Por is offering such space and I guess we could buy it from
> him now.
Would you care to inform me (us). I live not very close to the heart beat.
> I think part of what is missing is respect for the author. (No, I'm
> not whining. I write here for what it contributes to me and do not
> expect anything. Yes, I am one who would love to alter the economics
> so I could make more living in this medium.)
Correct me if I am wrong. It seems to me that you begin with comensal
symbiosis, but whish to let it develop into mutual symbiosis. Then it is
the same for me.
> For example, John Warfield is a genius creator previously on this
> list and offering much insight and sharing of his work. He was
> extraordinarily generous. He has now started his own list and no
> longer participates here. I suggest the reason he is not here is not
> financial but that he did not get sufficient interest AT THE LEVEL HE
> REQUIRED to make participation rewarding for him. There was no way
> for those (maybe too few) of us who wanted to go deeper to do it in
> this forum.
I have already sensed this deficiency. But I probably understand its cause
much better than you do. This deficiency is a direct consequence of the
lack of 'emergent learning'. Emergent learning itself is a complex issue
which I will not go into now, except to say it is almost the oposite of
rote learning.
> This is not a criticism of the forum. I can't read all that comes
> through now. I couldn't handle more depth on even a few issue if
> they were part of the mainline. But what about references to the
> sources of these deeper conversation?
I read all, and try to find time to respond to what is important from my
viewpoint. But I will have to cut down in future.
> And then we're back to the respect of the author. What would it take
> in time, attention, effort from John to engage with those of us who
> really want more?
All creations have an intrinsical creation time. The more complex the
creation, the more its creation time. All creations require the production
of entropy. The more complex the creation, the more the various
contributions to the entropy production. In other words, the more complex
our efforts, the less each individual report on them. The trouble is, the
more complex a creation, the less we are able to appreciate and respect
it.
> This forum provides a richness of approaches, of questions, of
> possibilities and perspectives. That provides a forum for
> challenging my own thinking. What is missing and needs another form
> - - but preferably not disconnected - is for those few ideas/ people
> with whom I want to go deeper.
It is he same for me. Somehow I think that Rick has a lot to do with it.
However, I fear that there is too much comensal and too little mutual
symbiosis in this forum. But we have to realise that this is part of our
legacy from the old era of education. Because of this high incidence of
comensal symbiosis, we experience a loss in mutual symbiosis.
> How can I be bitter about what I voluntarily share with the world
> being used in whatever ways it will? How can I be bitter when I get
> to play with people from all around the world at any time. How can I
> be bitter when I can go to South Africa, or probably almost anywhere
> in the world, and meet people who would love to buy me dinner - or be
> bought dinner by me?
OK. My first impression was wrong. I got the impression probably by
allowing my own experiences to mix with your message. It is very difficult
for very creative people to enjoy mutual symbiosis. Since they are at the
front's edge, they have to revert to comensal symbiosis if they wish to
explore their social dimension. However, when the back pack arrives at
what used to be the front, they observe how the comensal symbiosis degrade
into parasital rather than mutual symbiosis. Thus they often develop a
recklessly keen wit in regard to this matter.
In conclusion, may I make a point which I find very important. The
transition from comensal to mutual symbiosis is one in which spontaneity
plays an emmensely important role. Complexity intimidates and thus make
people less spontaneous. Those working at the front's edge have to make
more use of simple metaphors in order to shield off some of this
intimidation. This will promote mutual symbiosis.
Best wishes
--At de Lange Gold Fields Computer Centre for Education University of Pretoria Pretoria, South Africa email: amdelange@gold.up.ac.za
Learning-org -- An Internet Dialog on Learning Organizations For info: <rkarash@karash.com> -or- <http://world.std.com/~lo/>