Traditional Wisdom... LO9538

Michael Erickson (sysengr@atc.boeing.com)
Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:10:06 -0700 (PDT)

Replying to LO9051 --

Hello all, and particularly John O'Neill.

I'm sorry I'm so late in responding to your post-re: my little story
about some educational adventures in my past. I've been swamped with
work, and now have over 400 messages in the que, so this subject may be
long "cold", but I felt the need to respond.

You expressed shock at my story-saying " How do you people survive..?
On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, John O'Neill wrote:
> Replying to LO9040 -- Michael Ericson wrote:
> > I was not a star performer in his class, I had dropped out of high school
> > due to a lot of violence in the classroom-opting to find some other way
> > rather than risk being killed (I was beaten into unconcousness on 3
> > separate occasions-so this was not an insignificant concern.)
>
> I'd like to say great story - but it's not. How do you people survive
> and _want_ to live in such a society? On the newsgroups I read stories
> from people in the US who talk about going on bike rides and getting
> shot, your story talks about getting beat up in class, and these are
> considered to be "normal" parts of living in society? >

I realize america is portrayed as a pretty rough place, full of
contridictory ideas and ways of thinking. Your right, it is. In fact
you can find almost anything you want here, from the very best, to
the very worst here. The big issue you seem to have is-How can this
"anarchistic" condition be considered a good thing? You also don't seem
to be able to imagine how we can live with the violent, or eratic.
How can I stand it? I'll tell you.

But first I'll have to say that If I have anything to offer the LO group,
it is the "experiential" sort of information. While I lack a lot of
formal education, I have seen a lot, and I find myself backing up
someones theoretical presentation with a story. I'm sorry if my
"rambling on" gets tedious, it's not intended to be. But we are talking
about some sticky issues, and Values, Morals, etc. are not the least of
them. This "stuff" takes time to get through.

The first thing you need to realize is that NONE of us gets a choice of
where we are born, who our parents are, what our economic, social or
ethical situation is, etc. We all have to cope with the "hand" we are
dealt (to use a poker players metaphor). I know people from Bosnia,
Northern Ireland and Cambodia who have all seen violence that you (or I)
can't picture even in your dreams.

The choices we make-we live with. The choices our parents and grand
parents made-we live with. I feel fortunate to live in america. I
believe that above all things, life here is the most "real" of anyplace
you can find, but I also have a lot to live with.

While many of us search for the "ideal socioty", one of the things we
over look is that - we are not ideal people, none of us are. We all have
hopes and dreams, we also have a dark side. I have seen the most honest
and upstanding people (who have strong moral codes of behavior) do some
pretty bad things-when they found their backs to the wall. You may
think that "nice people" don't do those things, but WE DO, WE CAN and If
there is any place on earth that will allow you to discover your darker
dimmensions, then america is the place. The big question is "are you
willing to discover who you really are (both the good and bad) and see
what you can make of yourself?"

America will not protect you from yourself. It will not allow you to
hide in an illusion that keeps you from facing your mistakes.

America is composed of an immigrant population, much like Australia or
Canada, with a twist. Most came to america either running from
something, or running to something. The idea that the individual must be
free, and the countries incredible natural resources were a magnet that
drew people from everywhere, and the possibility that anyone could
achieve anything was and still is powerfull.

The great frontier shaped our thinking in a very fundamental way. For
many of us, the frontier is still here, so there are a lot of people with
guns and back country equipment, Boats and Trucks...Chain saws are
poplar, a lot of people grow their own food, cut their own firewood, and
build their own houses.

As for me-well I was born in Alaska, (yes another great frontier) and my
father hunted moose, caribou, bear, he would bring home hundreds of
pounds of salmon or "hooligan" at one time, and we'd have long meat
processing sessions, as we cleaned, canned, froze, smoked and otherwise
used the catch. We never bought meat. My earliest memories are full of
this strange mix of the highly technological "white" american life where
every other person (in anchorage) has an airplane, and the native aleute
and eskimo culture that was only one generation out of the stone age. I
had toy airplanes, and toy hunting lances... Out of this I gained a great
respect for the stone age cultures, and for the land and the animals that
live there. Hunting for sport is just "too weird" for words.

In my teens my family returned to the lower 48 states and I discovered
Freeways and the urban life. I also experienced one of the great evils
of any socioty, my parents divorced and all the effects that come to
children came to me.

Most of the violence I described in my post happened in school.
Children-particularly boys are a lot like dogs or bears, if you run, they
will chase you-and they might not even know why. Children of divorce are
typically very confused about a lot of things. some get surely, others run.
I ran and so made myself into "wolf bait". I had to "un-learn" that
behavior before I could succeed at life. The violence I experienced was
in part, my own fault, and I believe it would have happened no matter
where in the world I lived. Was it hard? Yes. Was It bad? I don't
think so in the ultamate sense. I can tell you there is not much
difference between being beaten into unconciousness and being beat to
death-except I kept waking up, which was far worse than going out. I
don't have nearly the fear of death that a lot of people do because,
well, "I've been there, done that". Now I concentrate on living. Now I
appreciate EVERYTHING.

> The worst schools I have been to in outback Australia seem like
> convents compared to what is going on (or more importantly not going on)
> in the US. >

It might be. Do you want to live in a convent? My own experience with
schools says, learning is in the hands of the learner. The school is
almost irrellevant. Bad experiences will teach you as much, if not more
than good experience. So why seek out only the comfortable or the easy?
I fell off a mountain once. It was a rush. It scared me. It also made
me a better climber. I rode a canoe alone out into big ocean waves, and
then a wind picked up that almost capsized my boat. It scared me, but I
mastered the situation, and got my boat and me to shore. I can handle
boats in big waves and wind. It was hard, but not bad.

> No wonder this list is so full of threads about values and
> responsibilities - does US society have any (other than chasing the
> almighty dollar?). >

Well yes. Values and responsibility is a BIG subject in america. It's
just not hard wired into everything. Since we all come from so many
different places, and have so many different needs that the real search
is on for a set of values that really work for everyone, protect the
socioty (life and limb) provide opportunity and let us all continue to grow.

> It would seem from your description that life can often take on the
> shape of a nightmare because of society - the reliance on the individual
> is a great thing, but ... isn't there _any_ notion of the values of
> society, the value of accepting some restriction in civil liberties for
> the greater good of society ?? (I forgot, it's everyone's right to carry
> a gun, right? why the hell would you _want_ to carry a gun?). >

With great freedom and opportunity comes responsibility. America has
experimented with regulating things like guns and autos, it doesn't
prevent occasional individuals from wrecking their cars or shooting
themselves in the foot. I own 3 guns. All single shot devices I call
tools. My "farmer gun" and my museum peices (flint lock rifle & cap lock
pistol). Hardly things you can fight with-certainly not intended for it.
I certainly don't wish to carry a gun, but my father did for years, and
he never shot anyone (was also a hard core christian-with all the ethical
strings that are attached). So the question- Is there ANY notion of
values, - you better believe the answer is YES.

> Yes, yes I come back from a little backwater called Australia which
> set a "world record" for the worst massacre at Port Arthur recently. >
> However, I can walk down the street, talk to 100 people and if one of
< them has a gun I am very surprised. I can walk into a classroom at any
> school across the country and know that the teacher will conduct a class
> and I will walk out without any violence occuring to me. >
> Gee, learning is almost "too easy" in this environment.

I wonder if that is really so? Yes, you might learn the academic lessons
of life, but I know that my "visceral" knowledge that came from climbing
glaciers on mount Rainier or the near miss I had on the freeway with the
maniac in the big truck 3 months ago allow me to understand all I know,
like nothing else I can express. I guess It's all in what you look for.
In america, too much peace and quiet make you a little nuts.

> Rick, there is obviously a need for your continuing good work in
> running this list. But did you ever consider that the biggest problem
> for the adoption of learning organisations is actually the societal
> values that are stopping individuals learning in the first place? >

It IS societal. It's always been about socioty. I can't say I'm entirely
happy about all of what I see in america either. I have a major bad
attitude about a lot of things here. There is a lot to be changed. But
this place has forced me to grow up and face reality like no other place
I could have picked. It's not a war zone, so I won't be traumatized by
shelling or bombing, but it's not some summer meadow either, it can get
tough but tough can be good.

> Maybe what we need to start on this thread is a list of societal
> "norms" and "unnorms" from different societies across the planet. Where
> people can comment on what is good about their society and what is bad.
> Somehow we need to surface some of the hidden assumptions that schools
> are for learning (aren't they?), that people have a responsibility to
> each other to live in peace and harmony with their neighbours (or at
> least not worry about being physically attacked every day). >

Is there really such a thing as a "norm?"

> I've said too much already, and will probably accused of being
> nationalistic, xenophobic, or some other discriminatory term. But I find
> Michael's story (and society) so hard to relate to .... >

It's OK. It's good to be proud of the country you live in. Australia
sounds like a nice place (I have a few friends there). We gain nothing
by pitting one place against another anyway. Americans do everything
LOUD. We make big noises and experience life in all extremes. No, not
all of us, but a lot of us. I don't doubt it's hard to relate to, but
then you don't really have to, you don't live here. The learning
Organization discussion originates from america I feel because We have
the awareness that WE have a lot to learn. We are on the path to learn.
We have enough social ills to remind us that we don't know nearly enough.
So we are driven harder than you are, both to live, to grow, and to
learn.

In the end, it's really good.

Stay in touch.
Michael Erickson
sysengr@atc.boeing.com

-- 

Michael Erickson <sysengr@atc.boeing.com>

Learning-org -- An Internet Dialog on Learning Organizations For info: <rkarash@karash.com> -or- <http://world.std.com/~lo/>