Robert Bacall wrote:
> On 8 Aug 96 at 15:12, J C Howell wrote:
>
>> Stanley Milgram performed a well known experiment some years back in
>> which test subjects were asked to shock other subjects
>> (confederates) in a supposed attempt to learn the effects of
>> electric shock on learning.
>
> snipped..
> The lesson taken from this is that people will comply with
>> requirements that they would otherwise not do, simply because
>> someone with assumed authority asked (told) theym to do so.
>>
>> Put people in a broken system and they will tend to do actions which
>> they would otherwise object to, simply because "that's the way
>> things are done here."
>
> I am very familiar with the Milgram experiment, and others. You
> seem to be extrapolating way beyond the data above, from the issue of
> authority/conformity to broken systems. The very powerful variable
> operating in the experiment had to do with personal face to face
> contact between the authority and the participant.
>
> That said, I agree with your other conclusions about systems, but am
> just commenting on your use of the experiment.
There is a difference in the way psychologists and sociologists
approach the study of social psychology. Sociologists generally prefer
to study such phenomena in their "natural surroundings." This, of
course, introduces the possibility of "contamination" from factors in
the situational context (environment) that can skew the interpretation
of test results.
Psychologists generally prefer to study the same phenomena in a more
controlled environment such as a behavioral laboratory. This also has
a drawback in that it isolated behavior from the same "contaminating"
factors that are often important in determing and influencing behavior.
>From this preference comes a tendency to apply results of
experimentation only to those situations which very closely (or even
exactly) match the laboratory conditions. Unfortunately, these
conditions rarely occur in the outside world. This requires a little
extrapolation to other situations and a little reality testing of these
ideas.
Milgram's experiment can, indeed, be generalized to group behavior as
well as individual, laboratory-induced behavior. Such a generalization
helps explain why Germans en masse attempted to destroy Jews in WWII,
why white people in the Southern US (where I was born and live) so
easily discriminate against and do harm to black people, why Bosnians
and Serbs and Muslims are currently trying to destroy each other in
Europe. It doesn't provide a complete explanation because these (as
are MOST situations) are extremely complex. However, the tendency of
people to comply with direct and indirect/implied directions from
authority figures is a reality. Otherwise, we wouldn't have many of
the screwed up situations we have today.
When you move from individual to group situations, the authority
figures are often forces of social influence. These include peer
pressure, social norms, and established/customary ways of doing things.
In almost any language, this translates into the term "the system."
What does this have to do with Systems thinking and learning
organizations? Much of what is being talked about and actually used in
developing LO's is not the result of direct laboratory experimentation.
It is the result of situational observations and explanation. This
places LO principles in the same general situation as social
psychology. Do we really know what we are talking about? Or are we
just trying to make sense of confusion?
The only way we know the answer to this question is to look about us,
try to make sense of what we see (hopefully using information from a
variety of sources, to incluse social psych), test our assumptions in
the "real world," and continue to learn from those tests. As I see
it, this is what developing a LO is really all about anyway.
When viewed from this perspective, my use of Milgram's experiment is
not at all inappropriate.
--Clyde Howell orgpsych@csra.net
Learning-org -- An Internet Dialog on Learning Organizations For info: <rkarash@karash.com> -or- <http://world.std.com/~lo/>