-- Rick Karash, rkarash@world.std.com, host for learning-org
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 22:43:12 -0500
From: learning-org-digest-approval@world.std.com
To: learning-org-digest@world.std.com
Subject: learning-org-digest V1 #4
learning-org-digest Thursday, 9 March 1995 Volume 01 : Number 004
In this issue:
Re: Gossip LO366
Re: GOSSIP LO367
Re: Gossip LO368
Re: Intro -- Bob Faw LO369
Re: Gossip LO370
Re: Philosophy underlying LO? LO373
Re: Reco. for video "MINDWALK" LO371
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cbwillis@netcom.com (C. B. Willis)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 19:57:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Gossip LO366
Replying to LO361 --
> Replying to LO350 --
>
> I would contend that it is impossible to talk about organizational
> learning without starting with gossip. Small talk in everyday encounters
> is how people and groups of people make sense of organizational issues and
> activities. That to me is learning. To suggest that organizations would
> learn better if gossip could somehow be exorcised is like saying that your
> car would run more quietly if you could just remove the engine. Besides,
> what is do bad about resistance? Isn't there a lot of wisdom in
> resistance?
>
> Mike Elmes
> mbelmes@wpi.edu
"Small talk" is a light, superficial level of conversation, not necessarily
secretive.
"Gossip" is derogatory conversation, normally behind the scenes, that carries
an element of secretiveness and some degree of hostility or ill will.
I'm unclear on what you see as "resistance" and how it fits here?
C.B. Willis
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
| cbwillis@netcom.com | "Values are the infrastructure |
| | upon which civilization |
| | will be reinvented." - CBW |
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: jack.hirschfeld@his.com
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 95 08:47:06
Subject: Re: GOSSIP LO367
Replying to LO350 --
Thanks, C. B. Willis for summarizing so succinctly and eloquently the
destructive power of gossip. You described gossip in exactly the sense in
which I meant it in my post. A problem that needs addressing is that the
gossip mill is often the only venue in organizations for genuine dialogue,
which is then contaminated by the gossip and the habits of gossip. In a
recent team environment I was able to get the team to legislate against
gossip as a ground rule, and one of the most serious sources of conflict
in the group almost vanished almost overnight...
- --
jack@his.com Tell me, what street compares with Mott Street in July?
Jack Hirschfeld
------------------------------
From: "David B. Henderson" <dhenders@omnifest.uwm.edu>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 00:37:36 -0600
Subject: Re: Gossip LO368
Replying to LO361 --
I am new to this list and did not read the original message on gossip.
But find myself agreeing that gossip should not be directly pushed out, or
whatever the original writer suggested. Rather gossip can be used as a
source of information about an organization. Changes in gossip (subject,
emotional content, volume, language set, etc) can function much like a
sensor or probe into the state of the organization. Hence, I've found
gossip very instructive and at times fun.
RE: Resistance, another useful tool and source of important information.
David Henderson
dhenders@omnifest.uwm.edu
------------------------------
From: Ann Fox <afox@freenet.columbus.oh.us>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:09:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Intro -- Bob Faw LO369
On Wed, 8 Mar 1995, Bob Faw wrote in LO364:
> My work is multilevel. I work with training people to become
> growing/learning-individuals, groups to be continually improving and
> organizations to become organically learning. I'm new to the field at the
> organizational level and am very interested. I read Eliyahu Goldratt's
> "The Goal" twice. I'm interested in other literature and processes that
> can be suggested.
>
>
Bob,
If you haven't also read Goldratt's "It's Not Luck," I would
recommend that as an excellent extension of the processes discussed in
"The Goal"
Make it a great day!
Ann M. Fox Voice: (614) 451-7121
The Excelsior Group E-Mail: afox@freenet.columbus.oh.us
------------------------------
From: Bill Weber <bweber@umce.umext.maine.EDU>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 95 8:27:44 EST
Subject: Re: Gossip LO370
I have been reading the posts re gossip and need to express some concern
about this form of communication. I find that gossip in the organizations
in which I have worked has had at least two functions, one marginally
helpful and one leading to, breeding, and reinforcing mistrust and
misunderstanding. I would agree that some conversational gossip may be
contribute to my understanding of an issue, decision, or action, and maybe
I can learn something of the norms and culture in my organization.
However, I find most gossip, including my own, to focus on a third party,
be that an individual or group(management or workers). So I am talking
about someone but not to that individual, setting up the kind of triangle
that creates victims, rescuers, and judgers of all who are in the
triangle. Incidentally, the Drama Triangle, as I know it, was designed by
Steve Karpman about 25 years ago. I gather that he was known as a
Transformational Analyst when he created this model of behavior. Anyway,
it is this gossip which I find destructive of relationships, partly
because I cannot work on a relationship indirectly. I find this pervasive
in all sytems-family, work, clubs, churches. I am convinced that this a
major barrier, so while I might learn something about myself in looking at
my participation in gossip, I think gossip is essentially
counterproductive.
Bill Weber
bweber@umce.umext.maine.edu
------------------------------
From: Michael McMaster <Michael@kbddean.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 1995 19:23:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Philosophy underlying LO? LO373
Replying to LO356 --
Yogesh, I need to have some clarity to know how to respond to your
requests.
In your questions about how information processing relates to aspects of
complexity, are you using the term to refer to computers or is it a general
question about information processing of living systems?
When you ask about an organisation's interaction with complexity are you
interested in how and organisation deals with other complex systems (other
organisations, teams, industry, economy) or are you asking about how an
organisation relates to its own complexity?
Are you asking about small groups and how systems affect them or about how
they can use complex IP/communication systems? And when you refer to
complex IP systems do you mean that they are using complex adaptive
principles or just that they are technically complex or similarly
complicated?
Similar questions of mine apply to "processes of interpretation of complex
information". Interpretation and language are both complex phenomena and
I can't figure out if you are using the various language distinctions
(complex, information processing, organisation, human computer
interactions) in a particular way that I'm not getting or if you're
unclear about what is complex or what.
This communication shows that the distinctions that I made earlier between
mathematical, systems dynamics and complex adaptive systems useage of the
term complexity - plus the added confusion of the general useage which
equates it with complicated - need to be operationally defined or we can
get into a lot of confusion if not trouble.
- --
Mike McMaster <Michael@kbddean.demon.co.uk>
"Postmodern society is the society of computers, information, scientific
knowledge, advanced technology, and rapid change due to new advances in
science and technology." Postmodern Theory, Best & Kellner
------------------------------
From: Myrna Casebolt <MYRNA@WP.DHSS.STATE.WI.US>
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 1995 08:11:23 -0600
Subject: Re: Reco. for video "MINDWALK" LO371
>>>>>reply to Alp Baysal re: his reply to MINDWALK LO359 as well
as reference to the systems thinking qualities of LORENZO'S
OIL.... from Myrna>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks for your comments regarding the systemic quality of Lorenzo's Oil.
Actually, another real life drama is unfolding as we converse with one
another. I heard on the morning news that a woman whose child was
diagnosed autistic by several practitioners refused to accept the
fatalistic "this is it....get on with your life" message similar to the
one given to Lorenzo's parents (Nick Nolte and Susan Sarandon as the
actors) in the film. This woman (the mother of the "alleged" autisitc
child) continued computer searches of relevant literature and conferences
addressing the symptoms of her son. She located (through her own search)
a very treatable condition that could possibly be at the root cause of her
son's condition. Sure enough....she was right on; the son is being
treated successfully for the condition. What this says to me is that not
only is the world opening up to greater exploration and creativity among
us, but that the elitism in our specialized (hear fragmented) society is
costing us in human and financial and natural resources. It is costing us
"big time!!!" When we fragment, we tend not to look far enough for
optional responses to questions. We tend not to live in the question as
much as we should. And, when we have researchers not look into the
question....that does give one pause, no?
So, Lornezo's Oil is being played out regularly these days....and for me
it couldn't be happening enough. I work in health care and see these
kinds of situations more often than I care to even think about! (But,
think about it I do....and try very hard to "glitch hunt, not witch hunt"
all the time....and try to model that paradigm in everything I do.) Have a
good day....and thanks for your comments.............
Dr.M. J. Casebolt
Quality Improvement Consultant
Division of Care and Treatment Facilities
1 W. Wilson St. #550
Madison, Wisconsin 53707-7851
(608) 267-3783 - phone
(608) 266-2579 - fax
MYRNA@WP.DHSS.STATE.WI.US - e-mail
Bonnie Morihara wrote in LO342
> For those who have not seen it, or for relative newcomers to the >
disciplines of systems thinking, I recommend the movie MINDWALK,
which > should be available at your local video rental store.
- ------clipped-----------------------------------------------
I think that MINDWALK video is an excellent one for introducing people o
systems thinking. It is especially designed to illustrate basic systems
thinking concepts.
At the School of Engineering Management of UCT (University of Cape
Town) we show this movie to our postgraduate students during their
start-up period to create an awareness about the systems perspective.
Apart from MINDWALK there is also another movie that we find very
useful. It is called Lorenzo's Oil. I am not very sure whether the director
was fully aware of the systemic content that he was putting in, or this
content is an unplanned emergent property of this movie but I will
stongly suggest to any systems thinker to see it (except it may not be
suitable to sensitive people because of its depressive context).
The models that the main character (Nick Nolte) is using and the self
driven learning process that he goes through (I wish nobody will ever
have has such terrible motivation for learning) illustrates very well the
kind of learning that we are trying to achieve here.
As far as I remember it is real life story and this makes the movie even
more relevant.
I would like to hear your comments.
Alp Baysal
School of Engineering Management
University of Cape Town e-mail : alp@cerecam.uct.ac.za tel : 27-21-650
26 00 fax : 27-21-689 27 37
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End of learning-org-digest V1 #4
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